Another Bethlehem? And what does that mean?

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Bethlehem and the Shepherds fields south of Jerusalem

Another Bethlehem? And what does it mean?

Yes another Bethlehem. Recent archaeological discoveries seem to confirm what the Bible spoke of in Joshua 19:15, that there were at least 2 Bethlehems. The well known Bethlehem in the picture above, and another Bethlehem not far from Nazareth.

What is perhaps predictable and typical of skeptics and critics of the Bible and critics of Christianity is the recent discussion that, "Perhaps the writers of the New Testament, knowing that Mary and Joseph really went to the Bethlehem near Nazareth, changed the story to mean Bethlehem Ephrathah (the one south of Jerusalem) so that Jesus would have fulfilled the prophecy about where the Messiah would come from."

Interesting the machinations critics will go through to try to discredit Christianity and Christ. Since as believers we are not afraid of the truth or of investigation or of questions, lets examine this issue for a moment.

First, if the critics suggest that New Testament writers may have changed the so-called real story of Christ being born in the northern Bethlehem near Nazareth, to a fabricated story having him born in the city of David south of Jerusalem, also known as Bethlehem, they acknowledge something that perhaps they would prefer not to have acknowledged: that there is a prophecy about the Messiah being born in Bethlehem!

So it isn't just those who are believers who acknowledge the meaning of that prophecy from Micah 5:2-4 (NASB) that says,

2 But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.

3 Therefore, He will give them up until the time When she who is in labor has borne a child. Then the remainder of His brethren Will return to the sons of Israel.

4 And He will arise and shepherd His flock In the strength of the LORD, In the majesty of the name of the LORD His God. And they will remain, Because at that time He will be great To the ends of the earth.

Bethlehem Ephrathah, not Bethlehem in the north near Nazareth, would be birth place of a ruler of Israel, a ruler out of eternity, a ruler who would be great to the ends of the earth.

Thank you skeptics for acknowledging the meaning of this passage, matching what we as believers also believe is referred to in this passage.

Second, lets think about the story as told by Matthew and Luke to see if it were to fit with the view of the skeptics.

Joseph was of the line of David.

The reason that Mary and Joseph went to the well known Bethlehem south of Jerusalem and not the one near Nazareth, is because it was the "city of David." That was where they had to go to be counted by family lineage.

Clever these tricky New Testament writers to have thought to have invented not only the town that Joseph and Mary went to, to validate the prophecy but also to have fabricated Joseph's family background.

The skeptics also suggest that Mary and Joseph must have gone to the northern Bethlehem rather than the southern one, because it was so close by. Makes more sense to them.

Ok, if that is true, then how in the world did Mary and Joseph show up in Jerusalem, some 70 miles away, so they could dedicate Christ at the Temple and only 8 days after his birth!?

Luke 2:21-23 (NASB)

21 And when eight days were completed before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. 22 And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "EVERY first-born MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD")...

Oops, the writers of the New Testament didn't think about the issue of distance here.

Imagine a conversation between Matthew and Luke:

"If skeptics were to discover later that Mary and Joseph had to have gone to the close by to Nazareth northern Bethlehem instead of the one near Jerusalem, how will we explain the travel of a mother and new born baby some 70 miles to Jerusalem in just 8 says?"

"8 Days? What are you talking about Luke? You are thinking like the Gentile you are. It has to be only 7 days, because one day would have had to have been a Sabbath on which we Jews would not travel far."

"Houston we have a problem! What do we do Matthew?"

"What's this Houston stuff? Never heard of it. Anyway, I don't think there is any way around this but to hope that the northern city of Bethlehem somehow disappears, never to be found again. It's a thriving city now, but maybe it will die out and no one will know."

"Matthew, what about the reference in the book of Joshua? Chapter 19 verse 15. People are going to know that there was another Bethlehem even if the town itself disappears."

"We'll just have to risk it Luke. What else can we do? Mary and Joseph would have to take Jesus to the Temple to fulfill all righteousness. So we can't leave that out. We do have a problem, but lets just hope that no one ever figures out that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem North instead of Bethlehem South.

If they don't figure that out, we don't have to worry about the other lie, the one about them showing up at the Temple 8 days later. That would be a problem wouldn't it."

"You're not kidding there Matthew. And I hope people in the centuries to come forget that we walk everywhere."

"Whattaya mean by that Luke?"

"What I mean is that Bethlehem North is only about 11 kilometers from Nazareth. For those in the future who aren't used to the metric system, that's a little over 6.8 miles. Maybe they won't think about the fact that we can comfortably walk that distance in a little over 2 hours, no problem."

"What's your point Luke?"

"The Inn doofus. The Inn! Why would Mary and Joseph have needed to stay at the Inn if they could walk to Bethlehem North and back in one day? Of course they might suggest that since Mary was pregnant that she couldn't go back from Bethlehem north in one day, but that blows holes in the way we have written the story. If she couldn't travel 6.8 miles back to Nazareth, how did she and Joseph travel 70 miles down to Bethlehem south?!"


"Yikes! I hadn't thought of that. But it's such a good part of the story, Luke. We can't leave it out. Houston, we do have a problem or whatever town you said."

"Ok Matthew, here's what we do. Lets just leave the story as we have written it and hope that no one ever finds Bethlehem north."

"Luke, we have another problem."

"What's that?"

"The trip to Egypt. The trip to Egypt! That only makes sense if Mary and Joseph are in Bethlehem south for the birth of Christ!"

"Matt, you are talking like an accountant. Speak to me in English. Sorry, in Hebrew. What language do we speak? Ok, in Greek. But get on with it."

"The way we have written the story so that the other prophecy could also come true, about God calling his son from Egypt, has an Angel warning Joseph and Mary not to return to Nazareth but to head out for Egypt."

"Why is that a problem my tax collecting friend? I thought it was a clever twist in order to make both prophecies come true?"

"It's a problem because if they went to Bethlehem North instead of Bethlehem South, then in order to get to Egypt they would have to head south right toward Herod, the very guy who was wanting to kill their baby. That doesn't make sense!"

"Crud. Hadn't thought of that Matt. You know what else that brings to mind?"

"Spit it out Lukie my boy, spit it out. This is getting complicated."

"The Magi."

"Whattaya mean the Magi?"

"Matt, we have the Magi not returning the way they came. And they came from Jerusalem! So if they were warned...rats, why did we have to put that in there...if they were warned not to return to Herod and went home a different way to avoid him, we have just goofed up and have Mary and Joseph heading south from Bethlehem North, going exactly where the Magi were told not to go!"

"Luke, you think too much. You are right of course, but you think too much. No way would Mary and Joseph be headed off in the same direction the Magi had come from if the Magi had been told not to go back that way. We got problems bro, we got problems."

"Our only hope is that people never find out about Bethlehem North."

"Matthew, let me remind you again that Bethlehem North is mentioned in Joshua 19. There is no way we can go out and find all the copies of the Scriptures and tear that page out.

Hmmm, maybe we'll get lucky and one day the Scriptures will be called the Old Testament and people won't read it, thinking that they only need this New Testament that we are making up on the fly."

"Luke, you are a dreamer on two counts. Bethlehem North is a thriving city today and there is no chance that the book of Joshua is going to fade into oblivion. Our only hope is that people are stupid. Man, we really goofed up here in the things we invented to go into this story."

"You are correct Sir Matthew, you are correct. The only way this is going to work...no it can't work. Sooner or later we are going to be found out, when people realize that Bethlehem North is where Mary and Joseph really went."

"Oh well, it is a good story we have made up, don't you think Matt?"

"I do, but there is another problem."

"You are a serious downer dude. What's the other problem?"

"Luke, the other problem is that right now people are being killed for believing the story about Jesus. Chances are that if we write this stuff down, even though it is a lie, that not only will others be killed by the Romans, but we will be killed. How's that for a problem?"

"Matt, I don't see a problem at all. If we are ever confronted, we'll just cough up the truth like a hair ball and denounce the whole thing as being a lie. I'm not dumb enough be knocked off for a fabricated story! No way on that score."

"Right Luke. I'm with you. Lets see how far this can go before we get found out. If I'm caught, I'll spill the beans. I'm not going to put my life on the line for this goofed up story that we made up!"

**************************************************

The "only" problem dear reader is that Luke and Matthew did give their lives for this story.

Foxes Book of Martyrs records this about Luke:

The evangelist, was the author of the book which goes under his name. He travelled with Paul through various countries, and is supposed to have been hanged on an olive tree, by the idolatrous priests of Greece.

And about Matthew it says:

Whose occupation was that of a toll-gatherer, was born at Nazareth. He wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which was afterwards translated into Greek by James the Less. The scene of his labors was Parthia, and Ethiopia, in which latter country he suffered martyrdom, being slain with a halberd in the city of Nadabah, A.D. 60.

(A halberd is an axe head that has a spike or a hook opposite the blade of the axe. Not a pretty way to go.)

So they made up the story? Is that right critics? They switched cities in the story so the prophecy could come true? I don't think so. They died for their belief in the truth of what they wrote. Stupid people they must have been to have done that for a lie.

"Houston" (i.e. critics) you have a problem with your version of the story. Actually quite a few of them.

Mary Did You Know?

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For those that may have to work or miss out on Church on Sunday for whatever reason, I've included a sermon below that I preached last Sunday.

Several people who were at the service prayed to receive Christ after listening. Some were reaffirmations, others may have been new commitments to the Lord.

Whatever your situation is, believer or unbeliever, I think there is some encouragement here for you. If you'd like to hear an audio version you can find one at the website for Eaglebrook Church at: Eaglebrook Online Sermons

As I have noted in the past, what follows are my notes from preaching, so they are formatted for my own eyes during sermon delivery, rather than being formatted for a "reader" like yourself.

I don't read the sermons during the presentation. The manuscript style helps me think through things more clearly during development. I hope the result of having saved the material in this format will be helpful to you.

Merry Christmas, and if you as a result of reading this you make a commitment to the Lord, whether first time or a repeat, drop me a line. I'd love to know about it.

Gordon



Eaglebrook Church – Minocqua, WI Sunday December 18, 2005

Mary Did You Know? Luke 1:28-35

Introduction

When I was a boy I was like most kids who grew up in our small town. I thought about baseball and football and basketball and hunting and fishing and outdoor stuff almost all the time. And I thought about music and one day being a famous singer. Of course I wondered what I would actually end up doing, because I thought I might have to choose between a professional baseball or basketball or football career too.

It never occurs to you when you are younger that there are people who may be better than you are at something. You just think you can do stuff. And then in time you learn that there are people who are much better at things than you are and that you frankly aren’t all that talented! Its part of growing up!

While this sort of frivolous childhood thinking was going on, there was also another line of thought that was going through my head that I suspect was not unique: I wondered about life and what the meaning of life was and what life in the future would hold.

I remember being in the car with all five of us kids stacked in a station wagon on winter evenings about this time of year, driving along to destinations that I now can’t remember, looking out of the windows across the Iowa farm fields near our home, seeing the lights of farm houses off in the distance.

As they sparkled against the black sky, and as I saw the stars out beyond the farm houses above the horizon, I remember wondering:

I wonder what is out there in space. Is there really a God? What is he like? I wonder what happens after you die? I wonder what the future holds?

On and on my thought process would go, wondering, thinking, considering, trying to analyze and think my way through things I didn’t know the answer to as a boy.

Mary Did You Know?

As I was thinking about this morning’s sermon a week ago, I was reminded of the words to a song that capture a sense of this same kind of wondering about one aspect of the birth of Christ. That song is titled, "What Did Mary Know?"

We know that Mary understood that her son was to be the Messiah, but what else did she understand about her son?

Mary, did you know, that your baby boy would some day walk on water?
Mary, did you know, that your baby boy would save our sons and daughters?
Did you know that your baby boy has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered, will soon deliver you.

Mary, did you know, your baby boy will give sight to a blind man?
Mary, did you know, that your baby boy will calm a storm with His hand?
Did you know that your baby boy has walked where angels trod?
When you've kissed your little baby, then you've kissed the face of God.

Mary, did you know?
Mary, did you know?
The blind will see, the deaf will hear, the dead will live again.
The lame will leap, the dumb will speak the praises of the Lamb.

Mary, did you know, that your baby boy is Lord of all creation?
Mary, did you know, that your baby boy will one day rule the nations?
Did you know that your baby boy was heaven's perfect lamb?
This sleeping child you're holding is the great "I am".

Mary did you know?


Luke 1:28-35 (NASB)

28 And coming in, (the angel) he said to her, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." 29 But she was greatly troubled at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this might be.

30 And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end."

34 And Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" 35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God."

What did Mary know? She pondered the salutation in her heart. She asked a question: How will this happen since I am virgin? She was curious and interested at the amazing news she had heard.

The Promised Messiah

What we know she did know from the meeting with the angel must have made her so excited that she could hardly contain herself because Mary for a moment was a representative really of all of Israel.

Israel for centuries had lived in extraordinary faith that God would deliver as he promised, a Messiah. And while it is true that the largest majority of the people of Israel rejected the idea that Jesus was the fulfillment of the promise of the Messiah, even today, those who are committed Jews live in steadfast faith that Messiah will come. There is great trust there in the Lord and there is great wonder as well.

They wondered in that day as they wonder yet today, "When the Messiah does come, how will it happen? What will Messiah be like? What all will he do?"

There in a small town called Nazareth, just a short 65 miles from Jerusalem, about the distance from here to Wausau, was a woman named Mary who suddenly had learned how the promise of Messiah’s coming would unfold—things that all Israel had wondered about and had prayed about for centuries.

Here is how it would happen: Though she was a virgin she would bear a child, the child of the Holy Spirit. And his name...his name, this name that no one had known would be the name of the Messiah, to use the English rendering—his name would be Jesus. Jesus or Yeshua, which means: Jehovah is Salvation!

So this is how it would happen! So this is what all the prophecies had pointed to!

What was resident for a brief time in the mind and heart of Mary alone out of all the human race, information that no one else had ever known. David had not known, Abraham had not known nor had Moses known what Mary had learned from Gabriel that day. Solomon with all his wisdom had not known what this young simple woman from Nazareth knew.

How interesting that the first person to have this information was a woman.

How much like God to do something that flies in the face of convention. Men were the spiritual leaders. Men were the priests. Men were the warriors and so on, but the Lord sent an angel to speak first to a woman.

All of prophetic history, recorded almost exclusively by men, the stories of which focus mostly on men, yet here at this pinnacle moment for Israel when the wrapping paper of history is being lovingly removed from the package of prophetic truth, is a woman who is opening the present.

I loved that thought, not just from what would be a politically correct view in our society of how this shows God’s value of women, but of God’s love for all people. He shows no partiality.

Believer did you know how loved you are? Unbeliever did you know?

Did you know this baby boy would one day walk beside you?
Did you know that this baby boy would one day come to guide you?
People, did you know?

God chose some one from a small town. No power-broking religious family from Jerusalem where the Temple was. No priestly connections, since Mary was from the tribe of Judah, rather than the tribe of Levi. Humble family circumstances were Mary’s, until there was a quiet visitation from an angel announcing something that no one else had thought of in precisely this way.

Women of Israel hoped to one day be the mother of the Messiah, but the passage from Isaiah 7:14 regarding a virgin bearing a son, was some how missed. That the Messiah would be God in the flesh was also missed.

Now as Mary was in her room there in Nazareth, it was as if the curtain of history had been opened a crack, so that she could see behind it what was to come.

Luke 1:30-33 (NASB)

30 And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end."

What Mary heard were astounding words on several levels. That she heard an angel speaking to her was remarkable enough, but she was hearing words from the angel that came as direct fulfillments of promises given to David back in 2 Samuel 7 where the Lord said to David through Nathan the prophet:

2 Samuel 7:12-17 (NASB)

12 "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, 15 but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever."

17 In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

Jesus never committed sin or iniquity; he became sin for us, our sin piled on him and by his stripes we are healed.

Mary, did you know when the angel spoke that this was the prophecy that was being fulfilled? Did you know that words that had been spoken to David a thousand years before were being brought to life with God using you as a tool? Mary did you know? I suspect that she did on this point.

Believer did you know that these words of the Lord from Nathan the prophet some 3,000 years ago are part of your heritage?

The Messiah, the son of David has come. He was born in Bethlehem over 2000 years ago, the God of all the ages fulfilling the promise he had made, and he will fulfill all is other promises.

Israel Trip – "Looking at a living piece of history"

Denna and me are once again planning a trip to Israel. We’ll be going in February and taking some other folks from town here with us...a small group of us, joining up with a group from Texas.

I remember our very first trip there back in 1998 I believe it was. One of the highlights was standing on the top of Masada, 1100 feet above the Dead Sea, with the Dead Sea in sight, as our tour guide told us the terrible story of what had happened there. I would encourage you to read about Masada and what happened.


As she began her story, Susan our guide said, "You are looking at a living piece of history."

My split second mental response was not to fully understand what she meant. I suppose I thought she was talking about Masada, this rock enclave we were standing on, with its evidence of the battle that was fought there, both lost and won by the Jews.

But Susan pressed forward with her meaning quickly leaving me no time to be confused, when she said:

"You are looking at a daughter of Abraham. I am living piece of history."

I can’t tell you of the impact of those words as we stood there in Israel hearing the story of the heart of the Jewish people. It gives you chills to consider the import of her meaning.


God is faithful and has preserved his Chosen People. The sons and daughters of Abraham live and have carried their heritage to this age and to this day. God promised that it would be so. No other nation on the face of the earth in all of human recorded history has ever been displaced from their land and then returned after 2,000 years to once again possess it. Nation after nation has disappeared from their land, their names part of the past, not the present.

Not so with God’s children Israel.

1,000 years from a promise to David to the time of the fulfillment in the birth, life and death of Christ. And now it has been another 2,000 years since the time of Christ, and God’s Word is no less trustworthy. God has been faithful.

Believer did you know that you can fully trust God’s word and the promises in it? Believer did you know that when God says he will save you, he really means it? Believer did you know this baby boy fully became a man, to die a death on Calvary and be resurrected again?
Believer did you know?

Perspective on the shortness of life


It has been just over a year since my mother died and recently I have undergone a treadmill stress test to see how my ticker is working. Things turned out ok with the treadmill, but I was reminded again of the shortness of life.

One of my co-workers and I have been working on a project for the company that required us to go to Wausau on several occasions and we have had some time in the car to talk about fishing and hunting and life and other things besides the project as he and I talked. The other day he spoke of the loss of his own mother not so long ago and how it got him to thinking. He is 62, and he said:

"You know in a good long life a person might get to see 80 springs. That’s not very many. We tend to think of spring and summer and winter and fall as always being there, but they won’t be for us. We only have so many, and I have only so many of those springs left."

What a great perspective on life that was for me to hear from this gentleman. We only have so many springs left.

As I thought about that and the fact that one day our own time will come to leave this earth, I was reminded of the importance of the promises of God. How easy it is to tell others of how trustworthy these promises are, and yet how difficult it can be for us ourselves.

Believer did you know that you can trust God’s word?
Believer did you know that God’s word is faithful and that he himself is faithful and true?

I remember talking with Mom just last year about this as she was dying from a form of leukemia. We knew her time was short and so did she. She said that she wasn’t afraid to go, but she said that there was so much to her that was a mystery.

Oh how I understand what she was driving at! So much we don’t know. So much we don’t understand.

But so much to count on. So much to be certain of.

God’s word, no matter how much time passes, will be fulfilled. Not one word will fall to the ground.


Promises Delivered Through Abraham


Though the 1,000 years is remarkable between the promise given to David and the birth of Christ it was long before David’s time that another version of the same promise was given. Back in the days of Abraham 2,000 years before the time of Christ, a promised son, a boy named Isaac, was asked by God of Abraham to be given up, to be sacrificed.

Abraham, did you know your baby boy would be father to a nation?
Abraham, did you know your baby boy, son of promise and expectation,
Would portray the sacrifice of Christ, the message of salvation?

Did you know your baby boy would speak down through the ages?
Did you know that hearts would be moved as they turned the pages,
Of Isaacs life as it revealed to them the Rock of all the Ages.

Abraham did you know?


Abraham did you know when God sent you to Mt. Moriah to sacrifice your son, that God himself would intervene and prevent you from doing so, and this was only a test to see if you truly feared God and would obey him? Abraham did you know?

So much Abraham did not know about what would happen, and so much that he did know by faith.

He trusted that if God had asked him to sacrifice his son and if God had promised that through his son he would be the father of many nations, that God must be planning on resurrecting Isaac after the sacrifice.

It never occurred to Abraham that God might not be telling the truth or that God’s word would not come true! How much we need that reassurance when we go through our own deep waters. And how difficult it is to trust.

One of the key messages of Christmas, among the wonderful messages that are part of the story of the birth of Christ, is the message that God’s word can be counted on. He will keep his promises.

Believer you know that, but do you really know that?

Believer do you know that down deep in your soul that you can trust God? No matter how deep the waters you are going through or the fires of trial you are facing, God’s word, God’s promises are trustworthy. Believer do you know?

Unbeliever, do you know that?

Do you know that God’s word will be fulfilled? Do you know that if you trust Christ as your Lord and Savior, that no matter what you have done it will be forgiven? Did you know that God will wash away your sins and mark you as his own, preparing a place for you in heaven? That is his promise to you.

But did you also know that if you refuse his offer of forgiveness through Christ that his word is just as certain that there is no other hope for you?

Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. There is no other provision for the forgiveness of sins. As surely as it is true that Christ was born according to the promises that came 1,000 and 2,000 years before his birth, in the years and ages to come whenever it may be that God chooses to return to earth to finalize things before eternity begins, there will be a judgment day.

It will be a day when all accounts will be settled. A day when questions are asked and answers will be given. One of the questions in so many words that will be asked, will be:

"Have you said yes to my offer of forgiveness through Christ?"


The answer you need to be able to honestly give if you are going to spend eternity with the Lord is:

"Yes, I repented of my sin and put my trust in Christ and Christ alone for salvation."

If you haven’t done that I hope you will do so today.

And for those who have, my hope is that today will be a day of peaceful reflection on goodness and trustworthiness of God.

"Mary did you know your baby boy would save our sons and daughters?"

Yes she knew and we know. And we are so grateful.

If you haven’t received Christ into your life, today would be a good day.

Here's a prayer that will help you do so. Pray this with honesty and heaven is yours:

"Heavenly Father I admit today that I am a sinner in need of a Savior. Today I turn away from my sin and turn to you, asking that you forgive my sins through Jesus Christ. I put my trust in Jesus as my Savior, accepting your offer of allowing Christ's death on the Cross to be my payment for sin, and his resurrection from the dead to be my guarantee of eternal life with you.

I offer you nothing in payment for my sin except what Christ did for me on the Cross; no good works on my part, no merit on my part, only what Christ did can wash away my sin. I ask that you grant me eternal life as you have promised, and fill me with your Holy Spirit, making me a new person, born spiritually into the family of God.

I pray this in Jesus name."

(Friend, if you honestly and sincerely prayed that prayer to the Lord, you are on your way to heaven. Drop me a line if you did, I'd love to tell you how to take the next steps in your new life with the Lord. Gordon)

When Life Doesn't Make Sense

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When Life Doesn't Make Sense....

As I watched the program on television I repented to the Lord for my complaining. On the screen was a dear little boy who was going through more than I could possibly imagine. Afflicted with a rare disease, one that caused tumors the size of grapefruits to grow all over his face, his facial structure had been destroyed and many surgeries would be required to relieve him of the malformations of his face. Even then, his face would never be normal. His life would never be normal.

It is a cliche, but it is true: there is always someone going through something worse than what we are going through. When life seems unfair, consider this little boy and others like him, who face so much, so young, and in some cases succumb to them dying at an early age. How little there is that we should be complaining about.

Yet we do complain.

We wonder why certain things have happened to us or to those we love. Very often there is no emotionally or intellectually satisifying answer to our question. We are left in the dark in confusion, seemingly with no way out, no way to think our way through what has happened.

Where do we turn?

We turn to the character of God.

God asks us to trust him. Oh, that is hard at times! How can we trust when so much seems unfair or wrong? How can we trust when our world seems so messed up? How can we trust as we look into the face of the child we love and see them suffer? How can we trust when the child we love has died so young?

How? How?

There is no formula of "self exercise" that will create mental toughness or strength or the ability to trust in such circumstances. What we cling to is truth, truth about the character and promises of God.

There is much we don't understand and will never understand this side of eternity, but what we do know is this:

God never sins, never makes mistakes.

God loves us greatly, even when we cannot feel or see that love.

God's character is perfect in every way. He doesn't play games with us. He is not up there playing tricks on us. He isn't like that.

God is all knowing and he is all powerful. He knows what we are going through and could change it. So we should pray. But we should also be aware that God may answer our prayers in a way other than we would prefer. Why? Because he knows what we don't know about the future.

God has a plan which will be fully accomplished. No power on earth can alter that plan to redeem us and do away with all the suffering the world and those of us in it, go through.

God will one day take away all pain and tears and death. It is just that that day is not yet. So for now, we wait and trust, even when it is hard. And it often is. But God will reward us one day.

God has a glorious eternity waiting for those who accept his offer of forgiveness through Christ. He is trustworthy to keep his promises. We will be united with fellow believers who have gone before us. Of that we can be sure.

Words on a page. Just facts. No mental trickery, no gimics, no formulas. Just truth. That is what we cling to during difficult and baffling days: the truth about God, the truth about his character and the truth about his relationship with us.

There is more, but this is a start.

If you are going through a hard time, start at the top of the list and think through each one of these. The pain won't go away over night...and frankly may never go away. But in time as we come to understand God better, those things about this life that we don't understand will haunt us less. We'll come to know that God understands and that one day all will be revealed to us.

For now our job is to trust him.

God has not abandoned you, no matter what it looks like or feels like.

Going through a hard time?

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Going through a hard time? Mistreated by those who were closest to you? Trust me, I know what it is like. And there is no explaining at times how people who are believers in Christ may act toward a fellow believer. Facing such circumstances can create the most baffling times in one’s life.

Where is God? Why did he allow the behavior that hurt so much? Where is justice, right and wrong?

Our feelings come close to the words of Psalm 73 when they say:

I was envious of the arrogant, as I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no pains in their death; and their body is fat. They are not in trouble as other men. Nor are they plagued like mankind. Their pride is their necklace; the garment of violence covers them. Their eye bulges from fatness; the imaginations of their heart run riot.

They mock, and wickedly speak of oppression; they speak from on high. They have set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue parades through the earth.

We wonder why people who have done wrong to us seem to be going on about their way "prospering" while we are suffering because of their actions.

I remember counseling a wife whose marriage had been destroyed by her husband’s philandering. She ached for her children and herself and very understandably you could hear the bitterness in her voice.

How easy it was, not having experienced such betrayal, to say, "Don’t become bitter. I know it looks like your ex-husband is going on with his life without consequences, but that is not the case. God will be there for you."

The right words, but without a full understanding of the desperate feelings of loss and betrayal one goes through when betrayed by those closest to them—a spouse, a fellow believer, a friend.

It is so easy to think that we should just "buck up" when facing such situations, or that others should too. "Just get over it" we think, but won’t say—at least we shouldn’t.

But things aren’t that easy with our frail flesh. We hurt and we bleed and we need God’s help to get through it.

Our minds wander and we can even think as the Psalmist did as he continued in Psalm 73:

Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure, and washed my hands in innocence. For I have been stricken all day long and chastened every morning.

But the Psalm isn’t written at the moment that Asaph, the writer, was betrayed. It was written later. He begins his words not where we started above, but earlier with the results of the lesson he had learned that what we see and feel are not always what is happening around us.

He says in verse 2:

But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling; my steps had almost slipped, for I was envious of the arrogant, as I saw the prosperity of the wicked...

He tells us that he almost fell into the trap of believing that there was no point in doing what God wanted, because suffering results for those who do, and for those who mistreat others, there only seems to be prosperity.

In the end he learned something important that he shares with us:

When I pondered to understand this, it was troublesome in my sight until I came into the sanctuary of God. Then I perceived their end. Surely Thou does set them in slippery places; though dost cast them down to destruction……when my heart was embittered, and I was pierced within, then I was senseless and ignorant; I was like a beast before Thee.

When Asaph was embittered by the seeming inequity of what was happening around him, he had forgotten that the last chapter of the story had not yet been written. Finally he understands and help those of us who would follow in his embittered footsteps, realize the truth:

Nevertheless I am continually with Thee; Thou has taken hold of my right hand. With Thy counsel Thou wilt guide me, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but Thee? And besides Thee, I desire nothing on earth. My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.

For behold, those who are far from Thee will perish, Thou has destroyed all those who are unfaithful to Thee. But as for me, the nearness of God is my good; I have made the Lord my refuge, that I may tell of all Thy works.

Going through a hard time? Having trouble thinking your way through it? I understand. But skip to the last chapter of the "book" of your life, rather than thinking only of the chapter you are in.

Remember, God does bring justice in the end, and that:

...the nearness of God is my good; I have made the Lord my refuge, that I may tell of all Thy works.

Remain steadfast. Continue to do right. God will not let you go. Though you may not feel his presence, count on it. He is walking with you through the fire and has a better chapter coming at the end of the book.

The Urgency of our Task

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The Urgency of Our Task

The winds of time are blowing through the trees outside my window. The voice of our inevitable end is carried on their currents.

The daily setting of the sun marks another segment of life irretrievably removed from our measured portion of seconds.

I am stirred to be about my Father’s work.

People with other agendas, who feed the dying the arsenic of social change rather than the Bread of Life, have reminded me of the urgency of our task.

The night is fast approaching when no man can work. Let us rise from our slumber and sprint toward the battle lines.

Gordon Magee October 1989

It tears me up that my boyfriend watches porn. It makes me feel less than significant. Am I off base here?

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Question:

This has been tearing at me for months so I would deeply appreciate a response. My boyfriend and I have been dating for less than a year. (We are both adults well past our college years.)

Why do I feel so angry and less significant when he looks at or watches porn? They don't even have to be naked, he'll download girls pictures from the internet and has a vast collection. Years ago when I knew him, it didn't bother me. But now it does. God has been changing me. I've told him what the Bible says about lust.

But he says things like, "Who am I lusting over besides you?" and "God made them beautiful and I love to look at them."

What do I say to that? He was brought up by Christian parents. So was I. What else can I say to him? Could you possibly send something that he could read himself? He won't listen to me. Or am I wrong to feel this way? Is it merely jealousy or insecurity? Thank you very much.

Troubled

ATP:

Be assured that your feelings and thoughts are the correct ones here. There are three areas that sin falls into, as noted in 1 John 2:16:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world."

Here are the three: "lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life."

Your boyfriend's actions are an obvious, no questions asked, "lust of the eyes" issue. Not to pick on him, but I believe he knows his actions are wrong, apart from anything he may know or not know about the Bible. When he debates with you, he is just trying to justify his behavior.

I would be careful about this relationship. Since he has "quite a collection" as you noted, he definitely has a problem--not that having even a small collection is ok!

The only question is the extent of his problem.

Since he is not "17" but is reasoning like he is a 17 year old, he likely has one of two another problems as well: he is either incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong or he knows full well that his actions are wrong, but thinks so little of you that he is convinced he can bamboozle you with childish rhetoric.

I think the most likely scenario is that in his heart he knows that his actions are wrong, but he doesn't want to give up what he is enjoying so much.

Even if his watching porn weren't wrong--but it is--if it is something that bothers you in such a strong way, then he ought to be able to give it up out of respect for you anyway. The fact that he isn't willing to do so is a major red flag.

Your gut feeling about this being wrong on his part, is correct. Don't be persuaded otherwise.

If we do not forgive, will God not forgive us, and do we lose our salvation as a result?

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Question: Matthew 6:14-15 says, "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Does that mean that those who do not forgive others have lost their salvation?

Question from a Study Group


ATP: The New Testament teaches that the relationship a believer has with the Lord is a permenant one. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Romans 8:1 says, There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Condemnation is a the term that describes the guilty condition of man due to sin, a condition in which man must pay the penalty for his sin. You have no doubt heard the following phrase whether in a movie or in an actual court room as sentence is passed on a convicted murderer: "You have been condemned to die...." There is an obvious finality to this word.

For those who have become believers in Christ, no such condemnation is possible says Paul. Once we have become believers, "there is therefore now no condemnation..." We have passed out of all possibility of being condemned by God.

That helps us understand Matthew 6. What Jesus appears to be referring to, is the issue of fellowship with God. If we don’t forgive others, God will withhold his fellowship from us.

David experienced precisely this in Psalm 32.

Speaking of his own sin (of which unforgiveness could be an example) he said,

When I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night your hand was heavy upon me; my strength was sapped as in the heat of summer.

Life was tough on David when he hid his sin from the Lord. The Lord withheld fellowship from him. But then David confessed his sin and says, you forgave the guilt of my sin, ending the Psalm with,

Rejoice in the Lord and be glad, you righteous; sing, all you who are upright in heart.

Fellowship had been restored, as had been David, although the entire time he was God's child.

Question: Is it wrong to say that another person's religion is incorrect? Isn’t that a form of judging that the Bible says we aren’t to do?

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Question: Is it wrong to say that person's religion is incorrect? Isn’t that a form of judging that the Bible says we aren’t to do?

ATP: To use a Christian versus non-Christian comparison to answer the question, very often those who are from a non-Christian, atheistic or agnostic point of view are bothered when Christians say that the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus Christ.

Actually some atheists or agnostics may not be upset at all by such a statement, arguing that there is no heaven to get to in the first place, or at least none that we can be certain about. So the example I am using may be viewed as moot in their view.

Saying that the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus is a statement by definition that rules out other possibilities, therefore assigning other opinions to the realm of error when compared to this view. But it is not "judging" to say so any more than it is judging to say that there are many ways to get to heaven and that therefore the view that Jesus is the only way is in error.

Greg Koukl, co-author of the book, Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air, (Baker Books 1998) describes a call he had from an upset non-Christian listener, who phoned in to his L.A. radio talk show.

The conversation went something like this:

"Greg, I don’t think you should be judging other people’s religion as right or wrong. The Bible says you aren’t to judge."

"So you think it is wrong to judge?" Greg asked.

"Yes. I don’t think you should be judging," the caller said.

Greg got right to the point of the confusion about judging when he replied,

"If you think it is wrong to judge, then why are you judging me?!"

The person’s argument was self defeating.

It wasn’t the judging that he didn’t like, it was the conclusion. The man was doing himself what he thought Greg shouldn't be doing: judging another's view to be incorrect.

He adamantly disagreed with Greg’s position, believing Greg to be incorrect in his assessment that Jesus is the only way to heaven. He simply preferred his own conclusion that there were many ways to heaven.

It is impossible to avoid making judgements about truth. We all do it every day. It is not "judging" in the sense prohibited by the Bible, to call error what it is. Nor is it unkind, unless done in an inappropriate or insensitive way.

The truth is that telling the truth about error may be the greatest act of kindness one human being can render to another. It literally can make the difference between going to heaven or going to hell.

Is divorce allowable from a Biblical perspective?

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Question: Is divorce allowable from a Biblical perspective?

ATP: It all depends on the cause.

Jesus was clear that divorcing a spouse who has committed adultery is allowable. A person is free to divorce an adulterous spouse and is free to remarry without either action being sin.

1 Corinthians 7 gives us another category of so-called "Biblical divorce". It says that if an unbeliever refuses to stay in a marriage with a believer, the believer isn’t "bound."

That is, if the believer is divorced by an unbeliever who has abandoned the marriage, the divorce is not a sin for the believer and the believer is free to remarry.

There is the possibility that 1 Corinthians 7 should also be applied to the marriage of two believers as well. It is much too complicated to take up in this brief article, but there is strong evidence that "abandonment" is the key issue in 1 Corinthians 7, not whether the marriage is between a believer and an unbeliever. If that is correct, it would suggest that the abandoned party even in a marriage between two believers, is free to remarry without it being sin.

One must be careful here about opening Pandora’s box, as people may feel free to divorce for any reason, which was exactly what Jesus spoke against, but it is not an irresponsible interpretation of the 1 Corinthians passage to suggest that abandoment is the key principle being spoken of, rather than whether the marriage is between a believer and unbeliever. The question in either case becomes, "What constitutes abandonment?"

Is it enough that a person is willing to live in the same house with another person? I don't think so, but where is the line that determines when functional abandonment as taken place? There is no easy answer to that question.

That having been said, it is more important for us to focus on building and holding together healthy marriages, than to concentrate on "escape clauses." God would prefer that all marriages work and hold together, founded on a relationship with Him.

Unfortunately as we also know, there are individuals who through their infidelity do great damage to their spouse and to their children. God allows divorce as an option for the victimized spouse in such cases.

What does it mean to have a personal relationship with God?

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Question: What does it mean to have a personal relationship with God? How do I know if I have one? I do want one, but don't know if I have one or not.

A Reader, USA


ATP: That is truly a great question. Most people, in quiet moments when they aren't under pressure to go along with the crowd, will admit that they think about God and who God might be, and whether or not they can know him.

Even a very antagonistic toward God atheist admits by his opposition that his life is defined by his/her lack of a relationship with God. Dr. J. Edwin Orr called such people "believers in reverse." Funny! But sad at the same time.

I Timothy 2: 5 says, For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Man's relationship with God is damaged because of sin. We are separated from him on a relational level because of that sin. On our own or by our own efforts, we have no way to repair what is broken. God is perfect and his standard in measuring sin, is to compare our actions agains perfection. As we know all too well, none of us measures up to that.

But God is more than "perfect" in his actions, he is a just God on the one hand, and gracious God on the other.

His justice demands that sin be paid for. We are wired that way too. We don't like it when injustice happens. We want justice to prevail. So does God, only he demands perfect justice, not the justice that we human beings carry out.

But thankfully in addition to being just, God is also gracious. It is by his grace that God provided a way for us to be forgiven of our sins through Christ, and for our broken relationship with him to be restored.

God chose to place all our sins on Christ. Christ who was and is perfect, was the "perfect" debt payer. His payment for our sins takes care of God's righteous demand that sin be paid for. It is similar to having some one pay off a debt that we owe, even though we incurred the debt instead of them. The debt is declared "forgiven."

When we repent of our sin and turn to God asking for forgiveness through Christ, our "sin debt" is declared forgiven.

As Paul told Timothy, "There is one mediator between God and man." Only through Christ can our broken relationship be mediated and restored.

So to have a personal relationship with God, a person must receive God's forgiveness through Christ. Jesus' death opened the way for people to have access to God. God will not allow access any other way.

If you have received Christ into your life as Lord and Savior, trusting in his death and resurrection alone for your salvation, you do have a personal relationship with God and are promised eternal joy in heaven.

A large part of the Christian life then, is developing that existing relationship by studying what God has said in the Bible, and applying the Bible to our lives. Some have the relationship, but simply haven't gotten to know God well. These are just as assured of heaven as some one who knows God intimately.

Please explain 2 Samuel 15:7 and why 40 years is recorded in the King James Version rather than 4 years.

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Question:In the KJV 2 Samuel 15:7 the Bible says that "...after 40 years Absalom..." As far as I know David was king forty years and Absalom wan't banish from the presence of the king for that long or was him?

Please explain to me about 2 Samuel 15:7.

In Christ,

MS


ATP: MS, thanks for the question. MS, there are two possibilities to explain the passage.

One is a simple one: that there was a minor copyists error that caused 40 to be written where 4 should have been. For example in the ancient manuscript called the Septuagint (an ancient Greek translation from the Hebrew that was done about 250 years before the time of Christ) the number is recorded as 4, not 40.

So it is possible simply that the copies of the ancient documents the King James translators used in 1611 had a minor typographical error in them. That does not mean that the original manuscripts of the ancient documents were in error.

As I noted, a translation that was done as long ago as 250 years before the time of Christ, uses the number 4, rather than 40. So clearly, under this likely scenario, there were ancient Hebrew manuscripts used by the Greek translators, that had the number 4 instead of 40 in them.

A second possibility is that the 40 is counting from some other time rather than the beginning of David’s reign. Perhaps the counting began with David being anointed to be kind for example, rather than when he actually took over rule of Israel years after the point of his anointing.

However, it seems most likely that there was a simple copyists error and that the number 4 is the correct number.

I hope this helps! Thanks for writing in! If there are any other questions I can help with, please let me know!

Response to comment left on the 'What is the age of accountability' article

If you take a look at the article from a few days ago on the "age of accountability" you'll find a comment at the bottom left by a reader. (Click on the word "comment" to see it.)

I'll try to address what is written there, as it frankly is confusing at best and deserves an opportunity for clarification by the person who anonymously left it.

I'll give you the full comment first and then explain.

Readers comment on the age of accountability article:

I believe that it's relatively clear in Paul's writings that those that aren't knowledgeable in Christ and have the ability to make a choice between believing in Christ and whatever else awaits us then they are bound by their own beliefs. But they are bound just like any person who has heard of the teachings of Christ. This applies to all "non-believers" or more appropriately titled "the unknowing". I believe that these scriptures apply to those completely alienated from the gospel in some remote portion of the wilderness as much as it applies to those not young enough to counted as "accountable". Which brings up a much more interesting debate; how can "non-christians" or "non-believers" be held accountable when most modern "Christians" are teaching the gospel inadequately?

Not to be unkind, but this comment has some logical problems among other problems.

In this section the writer basically says that all are in the same boat: bound by their beliefs.

I believe that it's relatively clear in Paul's writings that those that aren't knowledgeable in Christ and have the ability to make a choice between believing in Christ and whatever else awaits us then they are bound by their own beliefs. But they are bound just like any person who has heard of the teachings of Christ. This applies to all "non-believers" or more appropriately titled "the unknowing".

Yes and no. All are in the same boat in that in order to gain heaven all must come through Christ by, as Jesus required in John chapter 3, being "born again." Without that new birth no one gains heaven. So yes all are in the same boat.

But people aren't "bound" by their own beliefs per se. There aren't double standards, one set of beliefs for one person and another set of beliefs for different person, each with the ability to gain them entrance into heaven.

Jesus said both that, "You must be born again," and "No one comes to the father but through me." His statements may be true and they may be false. I believe they are true of course, but in terms of what the Bible teaches, there is no doubt that it teaches there is only one way to heaven, and that is through believing in Christ.

(I do understand the idea laid out in the Scriptures that a person who is not a believer in Christ and has not heard of Christ, is still guilty before God; one because they have sinned in reality, and two, because they haven't even kept their own set of beliefs about morality and ethics perfectly. So they are guilty by their own standards let alone God's standards. That may be what the writer is implying, but his last section contradicts that position. I comment about that below.)

The second section of this readers comment says connects the "too young to know" with those "who haven't heard" because they are physically separated from any information about the Gospel.

I believe that these scriptures apply to those completely alienated from the gospel in some remote portion of the wilderness as much as it applies to those not young enough to counted as "accountable".

Of course if the first section above is accurate, as this reader believes (that all are bound by their belief system and thus are in the same boat) then this statement is redundant, unneeded. There is no difference. All are bound by their belief system, whether in a remote location or too young to understand.

Further, while "these scriptures" are mentioned, none are listed, so we have no idea what scripture passages are being spoken of.

The readers final comment appears to collapse his comment in on itself, destroying all logical connections when it says,

Which brings up a much more interesting debate; how can "non-christians" or "non-believers" be held accountable when most modern "Christians" are teaching the gospel inadequately?

If it is true what the reader says in the first section of his comment (that all are in the same boat, bound by their belief system) then his last comment has no logical standing.

It would not matter if the Gospel isn't being presented clearly, using his reasoning in the first section, because all are bound by their belief system anyway. So if Believers foul things up by not explaining the Gospel clearly, the person still in the consideration process is nevertheless bound by their belief system. So what difference does it make?

In the first section of his comment the reader expresses the idea that people ARE bound by their belief system, but in the last section he implies the idea (if not his personal belief) that if the Gospel isn't explained clearly, how can people be held accountable...and another way of saying, "how can they be bound."

I would appreciate clarification from the reader, because what is written in his/her comment doesn't follow logically and is flawed by internal contradictions.

Is it biblical for women to be pastors or to teach men?

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Is it biblical for women to be pastors or to teach men?

ATP:

It may be surprising to those new to Christianity, in a day and age where there is more openness and freedom than ever...including living a day when there are laws to protect gender discrimination, that the above question is even an issue. But it is. It is a question that raises controversy in church circles right across the theological spectrum.

In churches where the doctrinal position is that women are not to be in pastoral ministry or to teach men, the controversy flows out of a position that says: "How could any one not see that pastoral and teaching roles are reserved for men? The Scriptures clearly teach that women aren't to teach men."

In churches where the doctrinal position is that women are restricted in no sense from any role in ministry, the controvery flows out of a position that says, "How could anyone not see that women are equal before God, not just in spiritual standing, which we all agree on, but also in giftedness. If God gifts a woman to teach, and he does, then what difference does it make where she teaches?"

And then there are churches in the middle who haven't come to a clear conclusion yet. In those churches the controversy often is, "I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I think we should be sensitive to those who believe a woman shouldn't be a pastor and shouldn't teach men. We don't want to offend anyone."

(Second person) "I disagree with that. I think we should be more sensitive to women for heaven's sake. We are going to injure women whom God has gifted, if we don't move forward with a more progressive position that fits the day we were in. Besides, we are the losers if we don't allow women to be pastors or to teach men. We'll miss out on their gifting." (No end to the discussion....)

Of course the three positions above are over simplified to make the point, but you get the idea.

In an attempt to offer one biblical and practical solution to this question, I am going to paste in a copy of a document I wrote for a church where I pastored that was working through this issue themselves.

I don't claim that this is the end all-be all of solutions, and am certainly open to be taught on this important issue for women and church. But I thought this policy paper that was adopted by our church at the time, was a helpful step in the right direction.

It contains some comments/thoughts that will no doubt cause you to think. No doubt there will be disagreement from both ends of the theological spectrum. That will be normal. But the last paragraph of the document, if applied, will be a helpful guide for all concerned on this issue and any number of others frankly.

If we follow that paragraph it will help the Christian community at large in handling any number of issues about which there is lack of clarity or disagreement.

I'll be interested in what you think.

Here's the policy paper. If you think it is biblically sound and helpful, feel free to use it at your church, tweaking it within a biblical framework to fit your local situation.

Gordon

Women in Ministry Policy Statement for _________Church


Pastor and Elder Roles

The role of women in ministry is an important and developing issue in the Church at large, within the _________Church as a denomination, and within __________ Church a matter about which clarification has been peacefully requested. After serious study of the Scriptures, prayer, consultation, discussion and input from numerous sources, the Elders submit that it should be the policy of __________Church that Pastoral and Elder Roles as described in the Bible, are roles which are to be filled by men.

Such a policy will require defining. What constitutes the role of Elder is clear and not in debate or question. However what constitutes a pastoral role is less clear. For example, is a full time paid staff member overseeing the Christian Education ministry, which may include organizing and training male leaders, exercising a pastoral role, given that the nature of Christian Education is to teach the Word of God? What about Children’s Ministries? Or Discipleship Ministries? Where does the Bible draw the line on what is or is not a pastoral role when it comes to the restriction?

Given the fact that the lines are not crystal clear for any number of pastoral or quasi-pastoral positions, the Elders suggest that it should be the policy of the church that the Elders determine in each case, after consultation with the Scriptures and with formal or informal input from the congregation and/or other sources as deemed necessary by the Elders, which roles are open to women. Congregational input on the subject is always welcomed by the Elders.

It is understood that the goal of such a process is not to restrict women in ministry, but simply to follow the Scriptures where ever they lead, and particularly where the Scriptures are not clear, to lean toward more freedom for women in ministry, not less, to avoid putting restrictions where the Bible does not put them.

Teaching Roles

What is even less clear in the Scriptures is whether or not there are other restrictions on women regarding teaching the Word of God. It is apparent that the restrictions on women being teachers are few. Such restrictions may already be covered in or pertain to the restriction of the roles of Pastor or Elder to men, in that the primary areas of uncertainty center around, a.) Paul’s word to Timothy about not allowing women to “teach or exercise authority over men,” [which may simply refer to the role of pastor/elder]; and b.) his word to the Corinthian church, that women are to learn in silence or ask their husbands at home, [which may simply have been a correction to either noisy women who were inappropriately exercising their new found freedom in the fellowship, or to a cultural stigma that forbade women engaging in conversations with men who were not their husbands.].

There is no question that women can teach and are equipped to teach in the legitimate Biblical sense. What isn’t crystal clear is whether or not a woman ought to, for example, be the teacher in a class that includes men. It is clear that women prophesied, in that Paul gives instructions in 1 Corinthians 11 on how they were/are to go about doing so. It is also clear that a woman taught a man how to more accurately teach the Word of God, as in the case of Priscilla and her husband Aquila, teaching Apollos. There is no correcting statement in the Bible suggesting that she had violated any principle in doing so. Women are regarded as fellow heirs of Christ and are called by Paul, “fellow workers.” So what did Paul mean when he said he allowed no woman to teach or have authority over men?

It is a fair interpretation, given the last paragraph, to say that since women did and are all of the above, that he was merely talking about the roles of pastor and elder, and was not suggesting that women are not to be teachers of men in a blanket sense of that phrase.

What clearly is modeled and taught in the Old Testament, the New Testament, in Jesus’ selection of 12 male apostles, in the early church and with some exceptions throughout Church history, however, is the principle of male leadership. This has been the pattern and teaching both for the home and for the Church in the areas discussed above, that of the roles of pastor and elder.

Given these facts, combined with the lack of clarity from the Scriptures regarding the role of teacher, it is suggested by the Elders that qualified male leadership in teaching is to be sought after first, but that since there is no clear restriction against women teaching (due to opposite and Biblically reasonable interpretations of the Timothy and 1 Corinthian passages), broadly speaking women should not be restricted from teaching men, whether in a Sunday School class or an Adult Bible Study Fellowship (Home Bible Study).

There may be times, however, when in the judgment of the Elders, it is better for a man to teach a certain class or better for a woman to teach a certain class, and that being a specific gender will be required to fill a teaching role. Such requirement will placed as a practical matter, not a theological one.

In all circumstances, grace and an openness to opposing opinions is to be the posture both of the Congregation and the Elders. The goal however, is to follow the Scriptures wherever they lead us, but to do so admitting our own fallibility in understanding them correctly. Patience and kindness will help us all as we seek to do the Lord’s will.

What is the age of accountability?

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Question: What is the age of accountability?


ATP: The age of accountability is the term used by some to describe the age at which a person becomes accountable to God for the sins they have committed.

Although never referred to in the Bible either directly or indirectly, those who believe in the existence of an age of accountability believe that people younger than this age are too young to be held eternally responsible by God for the wrongs they have done. Therefore, if such a young person dies before reaching the age of accountability, the teaching goes, they will automatically go to heaven.

If such an age exists, what is the magic age? Some say that it is about twelve years old. Others suggest that it is individual with each person, based upon their ability to understand.

While the idea of an age of accountability is an attractive concept because of its seeming logic and compassion toward the young, the theology underlying such an idea has severe weaknesses.

The first and most glaring is, that the concept of an age of accountability can't be found in the Scriptures. The Bible teaches that no one comes to the Father except through Christ. Jesus said a person "must be born again." Does "must" mean "must", or does Jesus contradict himself and allow for exceptions?

I think he means "must."

Second, not being old enough to understand is logically similar to never having the opportunity to understand.

There are many who have never heard of Christ, or at least have never had God's plan of salvation through Christ explained to them. Do they also go to heaven because of never having a chance to hear? If so, the greatest evangelistic tool in the world would be silence, never telling anyone about Christ!

In such a scenario, it would be important never to be told about Jesus, because the moment they hear of him, they become accountable to make a choice. Why put people in such a situation if it is better that they never hear?

Yet Jesus commands us to preach the Gospel and make disciples of all nations.

Is there an age of accountability? In any sense of a fixed age, it seems unlikely.

But that leaves us with a thorny question: What happens then to children who die before having a chance to receive Christ?

In truth, the Bible isn’t crystal clear.

1 Corinthians 7 gives us a hint when it describes how the children of those who are believers in Christ are holy. On the surface it would appear from this passage that children of believers are protected until becoming accountable themselves. But the passage is too fuzzy on this point to come to any strong conclusions.

One thing that isn't fuzzy however is that God loves children! All children! And all people of any age for that matter. We can trust their eternity to him.

Even though we may not be able to come to a clear conclusion about how God decides the eternal destiny of children too young to understand the Gospel, we do know for sure that God will always do what is right.

He is a gracious and compassionate God and is incapable of sin. He is a merciful and loving God. He will always, always, always do what is right, no matter what.

We can be confident that his judgement will be rich in mercy and grace, and will be perfect.

There is no need therefore to invent some system of thought or theology to make ourselves feel better. The thought and theology is already in place: Trust God with the destiny of children too young to understand the Gospel. God is faithful and trustworthy. And as much as we love our children, he loves them more.

Been on a dead run the past couple of week! Sorry about that!

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Too many irons in the fire lately to keep up. Sorry about that.

Hope all are doing well. More entries to come as I have a few moments.

I'll be preaching this weekend at Eaglebrook Church in Minocqua the next couple of Sundays (June 5 and June 12), so lots of preparation to do in addition to lifes normal things.

Off to an Internet Retailer Conference in Chicago for a couple of days; just got back from the Annual Catalog Conference in Orlando. Shortens up the weeks and makes catch up a problem, but I'm getting there.


More when I have some time.

By the way, for anyone headed up north, the smallmouth are spawning right now, so catch and release smallie fishing is hot right now. :-)

Gordon

Can you take the Bible literally? Part 2

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In the previous post I explained that to take the Bible literally means to follow the exact letter or meaning of the words that are used, and suggested that to do so is not an unreasonable proposition. And I introduced the idea that words rarely if ever stand alone. There are placed in a certain order to create phrases, sentences, paragraphs and chapters.


In Matthew 19:24 Jesus says, "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." What does it mean to take a passage like this one literally? Since it is physically impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, is Jesus saying that it is impossible for a rich person to go to heaven?

The answer lies in what it means to take things literally.

To take the Bible literally doesn’t mean that we mindlessly read its words. Being literal in interpretation doesn't mean interpreting what is written as though each word were separate from all the other words around it.

Words like, "for a camel to go through the eye of a needle" are grouped together for a reason. And they are to be taken literally-- as literally as the writer intends. Clearly Jesus is using what is called an "idiom", that is, a phrase that is common to the language and which carries a specific meaning. In this case the idiom is one of hyperbole or exageration. Hyperbole is used to emphasize a point.

When one boxer tells another boxer that he is going to "knock him into next week" we know that he does not mean that literally. He is exagerating to make the point that he is a tough guy who intends to win. That is hyperbole.

To express this another way, when we say we are using a "crescent" wrench to perform a certain task, what we really mean is a certain kind of adjustable wrench. You can picture it in your mind, can’t you. But we may not mean that we are literally using a wrench made by the Crescent company at all. The wrench we are using may be made by Sears or Snap-on.

We still call it a crescent wrench because "crescent" has become an idiom that identifies a certain kind of adjustable wrench. This particular kind of idiom is called a metonymy, where the name of a person, or a company in this case, stands for a product, item or action that is identified with it.

So we take Bible passages literally, meaning that we must use the meaning that is meant by the writer, with no right to fabricate our own meaning.

The "eye of a needle"in the Matthew passage above, refers to a small door in the center of the large gate of ancient cities. At night the gate was locked to prevent a surprise attack by an enemy army. The smaller door allowed passage into the city, one person, or one camel at a time. But in order for the camel to come through the door, all the goods on its back and sides had to be removed. Some suggest that the gate was so low that the camel had to crawl in on its knees.

And so it is with a rich person entering into the kingdom of heaven. They must come in humility, like each of us. They must not trust in the goods that they own, but can only enter by "setting them aside," putting their confidence in Christ and Christ alone. That is why it is difficult.

Many who object to taking the Bible literally, do so because they don’t want to submit to the Bible's authority. If they can make the Bible say what they want it to say, they think they can avoid responsibility for doing what the Bible says.

Their pride has them at the eye of the needle refusing to get on their knees before the Lord. Don’t let that happen to you. Trust the Bible. Bet your life on it.

More in the next installment on taking the Bible literally.

Can you take the Bible literally?

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Can you take the Bible literally? is a question that people often wonder about. Some doubt that you can. More often than not, those who doubt that you can take the Bible literally aren’t completely sure how to apply the term "literal" to the Bible.

And if you ask the average doubter which passages shouldn’t be taken in a literal sense, if they are able to point out one or two, rarely will they be able to give you a reason why the passages shouldn’t simply be taken at face value.

So for the next couple of installments I want to explain what it means to take the Bible literally, why taking the Bible literally is a reasonable thing to do, and give a few examples of what taking the Bible literally looks like.

Lets begin with what literal means.

The dictionary says that something is literal when it follows the letter or exact meaning of the words used.

Our overuse and misuse of the word literal has added confusion for the average person as to what it really means. Most of us have heard a sports announcer say something like,

The half-back literally exploded through the line, but was finally tackled by the linebacker.

Of course the announcer is badly mistaken when he says such a thing. The half-back may have exploded through the line in a figurative sense, but he certainly didn’t do so in a literal sense. If he had there would have been nothing left of him!

The announcer is simply trying to add emphasis to his point by using the word literal, but instead is changing the meaning of the word. To be literal means to follow the letter or exact meaning of a word, thus the half-back did not literally explode through the line.

To take the Bible literally means to follow the letter or the exact meaning of the words used. That hardly seems an unreasonable thing to do or to believe, unless one has a bias against the Bible, or unless the Bible is saying something a person doesn’t want to hear. In these cases, I suppose a person might have a good reason for not wanting to believe the plain meaning of a text.

Lets take this a step further. Words rarely stand alone. Their meaning is influenced by other words with which they are connected. In other words the phrases, sentences and paragraphs with which words are connected, influence and in many cases completely determine what a word means.

If I say "John is a razorback," you could logically conclude that John is the name of some one's pet pig. However if I say, "John is a Razorback. He's on the Arkansas football team," you now have a better understanding of what "John is a Razorback" means.

In this instance Razorback is defined as the nickname for the athletes who play sports at the University of Arkansas. We know that because of the context of the words in which Razorback is found. Even capitalizing the word Razorback communicates something because of how the English language is structured.

You get the idea.

We'll stop here for today, but let me give you some words from the Bible and see what your thoughts are as to whether they should be taken literally or not.

In John 14:6 Jesus said,

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.

Nearly all one syllable words. Every one ought to be able to understand them. What do you think they mean? Should they be taken literally? If not, why not? What other meaning could they possibly have?

Ditto for these words from Romans 10:9,

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.?

In this passage I moved us up a little bit to a verse with a few more two syllable words. But are the words confusing? Should they be taken literally? If not why not? What else could they possibily mean than what they appear to mean at face value?

Be honest with yourself. Frankly how you answer the question of "literalness" could determine your eternal condition and destiny. And I mean that literally.

Just back from Trinity Western Graduation weekend, sorry for the absence

Sorry about the break from posting the last few days.

My wife and I just arrived home late yesterday from being at Trinity Western University graduation weekend and Board of Governors meetings in British Columbia, Canada.

What a great time it was! 525 grads, our largest ever from TWU and another 65 from the seminary (ACTS).

Sometime when I get a moment I'll perhaps share some of the stories we heard from students on how God has been working in their lives, and from our graduation speakers, John Cherrington, Lorna Dueck and Dr. Gary Inrig. (Both John Cherrington and Lorna Dueck were granted honorary doctorates for their work.)

In between the more serious things, we were able to drive to Whistler, B.C. where some Olympic events will be held in 2010. Took a ride up to the top on a gondola, saw some bears on the way up, met a lovely German couple who was sight seeing. Basically had a great time.

Short on time this morning, so will have to head out. I'll get caught up more later.

Gordon

Could you tell me some of the key elements of different denominations?

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Hi,

I was looking through the yellow pages for a Christian church and found a lot of different kinds.

Could you tell me what is Calvary, Seventh Day
Adventist, Aventist, Evangelistic, Chrismatic, Apostolic, and Antioch
Churches? What are the key elements for each or what distinquishs them from each other?

Are there any websites you can recommend for me to find out more? This would help a lot.

Thank you,

Internet Rainbow (e-mail handle)


ATP: Internet Rainbow, rather than my trying to explain these differing denominations, why don't we start with a couple of links I found that would be helpful.

Hartford Institute for Religion Research
The Religious Movements Page - U. of Virginia
Chaplain Care U.S. Navy

I found these this morning when I did a search on Google for "church
denomination descriptions." I'm not vouching for the accuracy of the articles in the sites U. of V. site that describe differing denominations, just pointing you toward it as a place to gather information.

The links that take you to the home pages of specific denominations will be your best bet to get the information "from the horses mouth."

The Hartford Institute for Religion Research link has the most links on it and that is the one that will get you to the most home pages of denominations.

When you go to the home page of whichever denominations you want to check out, they should have an "about us" section, or a "our distinctives" section or a "what we believe" page.

After you have checked out the ones you want to look at if you still have questions, give me a shout and I'll do the best I can to answer your questions.

Thanks for the question! It led me to do a search to find the links noted above. I've saved the links in my favorites list for future reference. Those sites are going to come in handy!

Gordon